Interesting Article about Torture
  • JeddHamptonJeddHampton December 2008
    Washington Post

    QUOTE
    I'm Still Tortured by What I Saw in Iraq

    I should have felt triumphant when I returned from Iraq in August 2006. Instead, I was worried and exhausted. My team of interrogators had successfully hunted down one of the most notorious mass murderers of our generation, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq and the mastermind of the campaign of suicide bombings that had helped plunge Iraq into civil war. But instead of celebrating our success, my mind was consumed with the unfinished business of our mission: fixing the deeply flawed, ineffective and un-American way the U.S. military conducts interrogations in Iraq. I'm still alarmed about that today.

    I'm not some ivory-tower type; I served for 14 years in the U.S. Air Force, began my career as a Special Operations pilot flying helicopters, saw combat in Bosnia and Kosovo, became an Air Force counterintelligence agent, then volunteered to go to Iraq to work as a senior interrogator. What I saw in Iraq still rattles me -- both because it betrays our traditions and because it just doesn't work.

    Violence was at its peak during my five-month tour in Iraq. In February 2006, the month before I arrived, Zarqawi's forces (members of Iraq's Sunni minority) blew up the golden-domed Askariya mosque in Samarra, a shrine revered by Iraq's majority Shiites, and unleashed a wave of sectarian bloodshed. Reprisal killings became a daily occurrence, and suicide bombings were as common as car accidents. It felt as if the whole country was being blown to bits.

    Amid the chaos, four other Air Force criminal investigators and I joined an elite team of interrogators attempting to locate Zarqawi. What I soon discovered about our methods astonished me. The Army was still conducting interrogations according to the Guantanamo Bay model: Interrogators were nominally using the methods outlined in the U.S. Army Field Manual, the interrogators' bible, but they were pushing in every way possible to bend the rules -- and often break them. I don't have to belabor the point; dozens of newspaper articles and books have been written about the misconduct that resulted. These interrogations were based on fear and control; they often resulted in torture and abuse.

    I refused to participate in such practices, and a month later, I extended that prohibition to the team of interrogators I was assigned to lead. I taught the members of my unit a new methodology -- one based on building rapport with suspects, showing cultural understanding and using good old-fashioned brainpower to tease out information. I personally conducted more than 300 interrogations, and I supervised more than 1,000. The methods my team used are not classified (they're listed in the unclassified Field Manual), but the way we used them was, I like to think, unique. We got to know our enemies, we learned to negotiate with them, and we adapted criminal investigative techniques to our work (something that the Field Manual permits, under the concept of "ruses and trickery"). It worked. Our efforts started a chain of successes that ultimately led to Zarqawi.

    Over the course of this renaissance in interrogation tactics, our attitudes changed. We no longer saw our prisoners as the stereotypical al-Qaeda evildoers we had been repeatedly briefed to expect; we saw them as Sunni Iraqis, often family men protecting themselves from Shiite militias and trying to ensure that their fellow Sunnis would still have some access to wealth and power in the new Iraq. Most surprisingly, they turned out to despise al-Qaeda in Iraq as much as they despised us, but Zarqawi and his thugs were willing to provide them with arms and money. I pointed this out to Gen. George Casey, the former top U.S. commander in Iraq, when he visited my prison in the summer of 2006. He did not respond.

    Perhaps he should have. It turns out that my team was right to think that many disgruntled Sunnis could be peeled away from Zarqawi. A year later, Gen. David Petraeus helped boost the so-called Anbar Awakening, in which tens of thousands of Sunnis turned against al-Qaeda in Iraq and signed up with U.S. forces, cutting violence in the country dramatically.

    Our new interrogation methods led to one of the war's biggest breakthroughs: We convinced one of Zarqawi's associates to give up the al-Qaeda in Iraq leader's location. On June 8, 2006, U.S. warplanes dropped two 500-pound bombs on a house where Zarqawi was meeting with other insurgent leaders.

    But Zarqawi's death wasn't enough to convince the joint Special Operations task force for which I worked to change its attitude toward interrogations. The old methods continued. I came home from Iraq feeling as if my mission was far from accomplished. Soon after my return, the public learned that another part of our government, the CIA, had repeatedly used waterboarding to try to get information out of detainees.

    I know the counter-argument well -- that we need the rough stuff for the truly hard cases, such as battle-hardened core leaders of al-Qaeda, not just run-of-the-mill Iraqi insurgents. But that's not always true: We turned several hard cases, including some foreign fighters, by using our new techniques. A few of them never abandoned the jihadist cause but still gave up critical information. One actually told me, "I thought you would torture me, and when you didn't, I decided that everything I was told about Americans was wrong. That's why I decided to cooperate."

    Torture and abuse are against my moral fabric. The cliche still bears repeating: Such outrages are inconsistent with American principles. And then there's the pragmatic side: Torture and abuse cost American lives.

    I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.

    After my return from Iraq, I began to write about my experiences because I felt obliged, as a military officer, not only to point out the broken wheel but to try to fix it. When I submitted the manuscript of my book about my Iraq experiences to the Defense Department for a standard review to ensure that it did not contain classified information, I got a nasty shock. Pentagon officials delayed the review past the first printing date and then redacted an extraordinary amount of unclassified material -- including passages copied verbatim from the Army's unclassified Field Manual on interrogations and material vibrantly displayed on the Army's own Web site. I sued, first to get the review completed and later to appeal the redactions. Apparently, some members of the military command are not only unconvinced by the arguments against torture; they don't even want the public to hear them.

    My experiences have landed me in the middle of another war -- one even more important than the Iraq conflict. The war after the war is a fight about who we are as Americans. Murderers like Zarqawi can kill us, but they can't force us to change who we are. We can only do that to ourselves. One day, when my grandkids sit on my knee and ask me about the war, I'll say to them, "Which one?"

    Americans, including officers like myself, must fight to protect our values not only from al-Qaeda but also from those within our own country who would erode them. Other interrogators are also speaking out, including some former members of the military, the FBI and the CIA who met last summer to condemn torture and have spoken before Congress -- at considerable personal risk.

    We're told that our only options are to persist in carrying out torture or to face another terrorist attack. But there truly is a better way to carry out interrogations -- and a way to get out of this false choice between torture and terror.

    I'm actually quite optimistic these days, in no small measure because President-elect Barack Obama has promised to outlaw the practice of torture throughout our government. But until we renounce the sorts of abuses that have stained our national honor, al-Qaeda will be winning. Zarqawi is dead, but he has still forced us to show the world that we do not adhere to the principles we say we cherish. We're better than that. We're smarter, too.
  • EvestayEvestay December 2008
    great article, thanks for posting it! I still partially agree with the counter argument he disagreed with though: "I know the counter-argument well -- that we need the rough stuff for the truly hard cases, such as battle-hardened core leaders of al-Qaeda, not just run-of-the-mill Iraqi insurgents. But that's not always true." In a case of an imminent threat that needs immediate information to stop it and we have the planning terrorist in custody I might be okay with waterboarding.
  • BillBill December 2008
    QUOTE (Evestay @ Dec 2 2008, 12:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    great article, thanks for posting it! I still partially agree with the counter argument he disagreed with though: "I know the counter-argument well -- that we need the rough stuff for the truly hard cases, such as battle-hardened core leaders of al-Qaeda, not just run-of-the-mill Iraqi insurgents. But that's not always true." In a case of an imminent threat that needs immediate information to stop it and we have the planning terrorist in custody I might be okay with waterboarding.



    That's a slippery fucking slope, and I dare suggest you're regret having said that if shit continues the way it's going.
  • NunesNunes December 2008
    Yeah. Torture = Never good. No I don't want to hear your hypothetical situation where it would save more lives than it would destroy. That's not what it's about. If a decision on whether to torture somebody or not is to be made, it has to be made on some criteria. If that criteria is the number of lives this person has been responsible for in the past combined with the reasonable suspicion that they have another attack planned, then you are asking somebody to draw a line for you at which you'll compromise your morals.

    No lines. No compromises. No torture.
  • Australian+WitchAustralian Witch December 2008
    QUOTE
    A few of them never abandoned the jihadist cause but still gave up critical information. One actually told me, "I thought you would torture me, and when you didn't, I decided that everything I was told about Americans was wrong. That's why I decided to cooperate."


    I think this says it all. These people, just like American soldiers, are trained to never give in under torture. Torture is base and crude. It is far more sophisticated and effective to use modern interrogation techniques without resorting to physical methods to extract information.
  • EvestayEvestay December 2008
    I agree with you guys in general, but I'm just thinking of a one in a million situation that might call for different measures. In the interest of time, waterboarding breaks people in a good 20 seconds while sophisticated techniques would never even get close to that. US special forces train by waterboarding themselves and many experts were astonished to hear that Mohammad Atta lasted 90 seconds before he broke. We've only used waterboarding three times total (well according to unidentified sources). We probably did not need it in any of the circumstances, but I can envision a situation in which it could be used. I am disappointed in the Bush administrations general lack of moral leadership on the torture front, but even with a President 100% against torture, I think there would still be a behind the doors last ditch possibility of using it. What president would risk having xxxxxx number of lives on their conscious and what president would stop a potential Jack Bauer from doing his look-the-other-way approved job?
  • EvestayEvestay December 2008
    okay I found what I've been looking for:
    http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?articl...ime_bomb_excuse
    QUOTE
    Torture, it seems, just won't disappear from the American political landscape. Last week's revelation of the U.S. attorney general's authorization for the use of torture is one more chapter in a story that the American people will have to live with for time immemorial.

    Yet, it comes, uncannily, at a time when the American public finally has some leadership in the effort to oppose torture, even at the highest levels of government. It has been three and a half years since the Abu Ghraib photos appeared and, rather than putting a firm end to the re-introduction of sixteenth century methods of obtaining information, that revelation merely served to open up a Pandora's box of possibilities for the use of torture. Americans were entranced by the techniques of Jack Bauer on 24, reassured by the idea of a president who would respond to the ticking bomb scenario by doing whatever it took, and only mildly impressed by arguments about morality, legality and the like.

    But this will not be the reaction this time around. The most recent Democratic presidential candidate debate made it clear that America has traversed considerable ground of late in the discussion of torture. Notably, at the Hanover debate, Hillary Clinton took a giant step forward when she declared that she was opposed to torture on any grounds, in any circumstance. "As a matter of policy," she said, torture "cannot be American policy. Period."

    Moderator Tim Russert then laid out the typical ticking time bomb scenario -- describing a suspect who has information about an imminent terrorist attack, and torture might be the only way to retrieve that information fast enough to save lives. Even after Russert pointed out her husband had defended the use of torture in such an extreme case, she refused to backtrack.

    By holding her ground, she shifted the terms of the debate. Her fellow candidates Joe Biden, Bill Richardson, Chris Dodd, and John Edwards agreed that torture cannot be a matter of policy, though they were not specifically responding to the ticking time bomb hypothetical. Barack Obama acknowledged the scenario as an impediment to full-scale backtracking on the Bush administration's torture rhetoric: "America cannot sanction torture... I will do whatever it takes to keep America safe. And there are going to be all sorts of hypotheticals and emergency situations, and I will make that judgment at that time."

    yes I know this was from 2007, but it indicates a willingness to consider limited exceptions.
  • GovernorGovernor December 2008
    Never, under any circumstance, ever. Most of my rationale has already been said.
  • ScabdatesScabdates December 2008
    I think making a blanket statement about anything is a terrible idea.
  • GovernorGovernor December 2008
    QUOTE (Scabdates @ Dec 3 2008, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I think making a blanket statement about anything is a terrible idea.


    This is a discussion about when torture should be allowed under the rule of law of the United States. Are you saying that you think laws should only apply on a case by case basis?

    I could care less about someone torturing someone else, and I'm sure it can be wildly successful. Heck, I would do it myself if there was a threat posed to my family, and I thought it would help to stop it. However, that doesn't mean I think there is ever a situation where it should be legal under US law, including the one I just outlined.
  • ScabdatesScabdates December 2008
    QUOTE (Governor @ Dec 3 2008, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    This is a discussion about when torture should be allowed under the rule of law of the United States. Are you saying that you think laws should only apply on a case by case basis?

    I could care less about someone torturing someone else, and I'm sure it can be wildly successful. Heck, I would do it myself if there was a threat posed to my family, and I thought it would help to stop it. However, that doesn't mean I think there is ever a situation where it should be legal under US law, including the one I just outlined.


    The government breaks the law all the time, at least this time it might be with good intentions for the American people?

    I'm 100% against torture but I think if we are positive that a guy knows something that could save a city full of people, maybe, just maybe we should go ahead and give him the surfboard.
  • GovernorGovernor December 2008
    QUOTE (Scabdates @ Dec 3 2008, 03:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    The government breaks the law all the time, at least this time it might be with good intentions for the American people?

    I'm 100% against torture but I think if we are positive that a guy knows something that could save a city full of people, maybe, just maybe we should go ahead and give him the surfboard.


    Sorry. I don't lower my standards based on the failures of others. The government breaks the law because the American people let them do it, and I'm not about to simply accept their transgressions on the ludicrous basis that the general apathy of the American public somehow justifies them.

    And I'm absolutely terrified of giving the government sweeping authority to authorize the abuse of people when they feel like it is necessary. The whole "it's ok so long as it is only happening to that guy because like...he's totally guilty" concept is pretty much the most un-American thing that could ever be stated. You could shit on the flag, wrap it around effigies of all of our founding fathers, set it ablaze and throw a newborn child on it, and you would look patriotic in comparison.
  • PheylanPheylan December 2008
    QUOTE (Governor @ Dec 3 2008, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    This is a discussion about when torture should be allowed under the rule of law of the United States. Are you saying that you think laws should only apply on a case by case basis?

    I could care less about someone torturing someone else, and I'm sure it can be wildly successful. Heck, I would do it myself if there was a threat posed to my family, and I thought it would help to stop it. However, that doesn't mean I think there is ever a situation where it should be legal under US law, including the one I just outlined.



    I'm guessing that right now, for every person in this community, laws only apply to them on a case by case basis. Speed limits are broken all the time. Under age drinking? Drug use? Taking that beer glass at the bar cause it looks cool? Downloading the latest Photoshop because, let's face it, no one wants to drop a couple hundred bucks.

    So I guess you could say that you only break the laws that don't really hurt anyone. Ok, I can live with that. So those are pretty harmless crimes where other people don't really get hurt. How about having a few drinks and driving home? Every little bit of alcohol makes your reaction time and judgment that much worse. Running a red light or stop sign is the same idea.
  • GovernorGovernor December 2008
    QUOTE (Pheylan @ Dec 3 2008, 05:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I'm guessing that right now, for every person in this community, laws only apply to them on a case by case basis. Speed limits are broken all the time. Under age drinking? Drug use? Taking that beer glass at the bar cause it looks cool? Downloading the latest Photoshop because, let's face it, no one wants to drop a couple hundred bucks.

    So I guess you could say that you only break the laws that don't really hurt anyone. Ok, I can live with that. So those are pretty harmless crimes where other people don't really get hurt. How about having a few drinks and driving home? Every little bit of alcohol makes your reaction time and judgment that much worse. Running a red light or stop sign is the same idea.


    Hold up. You're not drawing a fair comparison (at least for my opinion on the matter). I'm against the lawful sanctioning of torture under any situation. I think any individual that is caught ordering it or doing it, regardless of the situation, should be prosecuted accordingly. The same goes for any and all of the laws I've ever broken. There is a huge different between breaking the law and expecting personal exemptions from it.
  • PheylanPheylan December 2008
    So then, why isn't it acceptable for whatever agency or government to cover it up? Or at least not go out and admit guilt? People don't go find a cop to turn themselves in when they do any of the before mentioned things.

    Sorry, I'm not trying to condone torture or anything else. I just think that the government should be held to the same standards we hold ourselves. Me personally, I would do whatever it took to protect my friends and family, even if that meant breaking the law. Those are my standards, and if it meant torturing someone to do it, then I would. I would also forgive the government for doing the same.
  • GovernorGovernor December 2008
    QUOTE (Pheylan @ Dec 3 2008, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    So then, why isn't it acceptable for whatever agency or government to cover it up? Or at least not go out and admit guilt? People don't go find a cop to turn themselves in when they do any of the before mentioned things.

    Sorry, I'm not trying to condone torture or anything else. I just think that the government should be held to the same standards we hold ourselves. Me personally, I would do whatever it took to protect my friends and family, even if that meant breaking the law. Those are my standards, and if it meant torturing someone to do it, then I would. I would also forgive the government for doing the same.


    And this is where your and I opinions differ dramatically. Just because you or I would do whatever we could to protect ourselves from prosecution for any crimes we committed, that doesn't make it acceptable to do so. The initial crime is unlawful as is any attempt to cover it up. I agree 100% that the government should be held to the same standards we hold for ourselves, no more - no less, and that's exactly why I do not, and can not, support their condoning of torture under any circumstance.

    Scenario: Let's say I captured a guy that I knew kidnapped my family and hid them in a location where their death's were just a matter of a few hours away. I also knew that if I handed the guy over to police, he would be too strong willed [or insane] to be persuaded quick enough to give up their location. So, I choose pretty much the only option I've got -- tie the guy down and see if pulling out his fingernails and teeth with pliers will be a quick enough form of persuasion. If I thought it was the only way to save them, you better believe that I'd do it in a heartbeat. However, I don't get, nor should I have, the luxury to shrug that off as "the only option they had." I would be convicted of a myriad of charges and would be sentenced to a significant prison-time. Maybe I'd be pardoned, and most likely I would receive a little sympathy from the jury given the circumstance, but I still broke the law, and one of the greatest things about this country is that no one is held above the law under any circumstance. That's fine. Obviously the whole situation wouldn't be ideal, but that was the deck I was dealt, and regardless of the consequences, I would be more than willing to do it. I suppose you would expect an exception to the law in my case?

    And yes, I've resorted to hypotheticals. Be happy to know that I do feel awful about it.
  • PheylanPheylan December 2008
    QUOTE (Governor @ Dec 3 2008, 11:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    And this is where your and I opinions differ dramatically. Just because you or I would do whatever we could to protect ourselves from prosecution for any crimes we committed, that doesn't make it acceptable to do so. The initial crime is unlawful as is any attempt to cover it up. I agree 100% that the government should be held to the same standards we hold for ourselves, no more - no less, and that's exactly why I do not, and can not, support their condoning of torture under any circumstance.

    Scenario: Let's say I captured a guy that I knew kidnapped my family and hid them in a location where their death's were just a matter of a few hours away. I also knew that if I handed the guy over to police, he would be too strong willed [or insane] to be persuaded quick enough to give up their location. So, I choose pretty much the only option I've got -- tie the guy down and see if pulling out his fingernails and teeth with pliers will be a quick enough form of persuasion. If I thought it was the only way to save them, you better believe that I'd do it in a heartbeat. However, I don't get, nor should I have, the luxury to shrug that off as "the only option they had." I would be convicted of a myriad of charges and would be sentenced to a significant prison-time. Maybe I'd be pardoned, and most likely I would receive a little sympathy from the jury given the circumstance, but I still broke the law, and one of the greatest things about this country is that no one is held above the law under any circumstance. That's fine. Obviously the whole situation wouldn't be ideal, but that was the deck I was dealt, and regardless of the consequences, I would be more than willing to do it. I suppose you would expect an exception to the law in my case?

    And yes, I've resorted to hypotheticals. Be happy to know that I do feel awful about it.



    I want to clarify one thing from my previous post. I don't condone the government breaking the law just because they can get away with it. Ideally they follow the law in everything they do. Of course, ideally everyone follows the law.

    In your case, I'd expect you to try and get away with it. I think an exception may be too much for anyone to hope for, but at the very least you're right, you may get some leniency.

    I like hypothetical, as long as it's realistic.
  • NunesNunes December 2008
    QUOTE (Governor @ Dec 3 2008, 11:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Scenario: I'm trapped in a vortex where the universes of CSI and 24 collided.


    That would really suck.
    /info/
    There are 3 categories of kidnapping. Family Kidnapping, Acquaintance Kidnapping, and Stranger Kidnapping. Most kidnappings are parents taking unlawful custody of their kids (about half). A quarter are basically thugs tying up one of the girls at school and raping her, and the final quarter are strangers.

    In the first two the kidnappers goals require them to be WITH the child who was kidnapped. In the last there are many flavors of kidnapping motives. Rape, robbery and ransom are the most common (in that order). Since the first two of that make up the vast majority of this type of crime you're looking at about 5% of kidnappings not requiring the perpetrator to be with the child they took. Of those 5% how many do you think have involved a kid strapped to a chair with a timebomb underneath? Here's a hint: it rhymes with "hero"...
    /info/
  • romerashromerash December 2008
    torturing animals is illegal while torturing humans is?

    edit: nerf typos
  • Australian+WitchAustralian Witch December 2008
    but animals are fuzzy-wuzzy wittle cuties, and they don't construct pipe bombs to hide under their fur coats designed to go off while they're humping your leg... so yeah, of course it's illegal!

    image/biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" />
  • NunesNunes December 2008
    QUOTE (romerash @ Dec 5 2008, 03:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    torturing animals is illegal while torturing humans is?

    edit: nerf typos


    Wow, animal cruelty legislation would rule WAY more if every time you read "dog", "cat", "zoo animal" or "animal belonging to another person" with "person"... and "misdemeanor" with "felony"

    "A person commits a misdemeanor felony of the first degree if he willfully and maliciously kills, maims, mutilates, tortures or disfigures any dog or cat person, whether belonging to himself or otherwise."
  • BlackLightBlackLight December 2008
    Michael Vick respectfully disagrees
  • NunesNunes December 2008
    QUOTE (BlackLight @ Dec 9 2008, 02:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Michael Vick respectfully disagrees


    image
    neither respects me nor disagrees that animal cruelty legislation would be better applied to cruelty to people.

    image
    however would prefer that neither he nor any of his administration come up on charges related to controlled drowning with breaks only as required to extract (hopefully) useful and accurate information.

    Disagrees.
This discussion has been closed.
← All Discussions

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Sign In Apply for Membership