Forbidden Donut

This picture accurately depicts my views on the subject matter.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/..._CRS_report.pdf

Sorry but I dont see anything wrong with this. He gets to bypass laws to build a fence and then loses that power immediately once the project is finished. I'm sick of waiting for a fence to be built and I don't even think Chertoff is going far enough- he is building a single fence not a double one.

So, not only should we violate the basic human rights of people trying to better their lives by entering this great country of ours, but we should also violate the rights of our own citizens granted under our own laws to construct a fence to facilitate the violation of those rights. sweet.

What exactly do you think the fence will do? Besides being reminiscent of the Palestine wall that everybody looks on with admiration, impressed by the ability of Israel to balance security with Human Rights.

I would think this says it all.

I don't see how preventing them from coming in violates their human rights. If it does, then we ought to let anybody come into our country without limit. Such an influx would wear down our basic infrastructure and drag down our standard of living, which makes no sense if you want to maintain whatever human rights we are able to practice now. Also, how does building the fence violate the rights of Americans?

The fact that mr chertoff is granted the ability to circumvent our laws says that our rights are being violated.

Yes.

I am a proponent of the construction of the wall, but I think this is absolutely horrible. No one...ever...should have the authority to circumvent our laws. I don't care how well-intentioned someone is. I don't care if they are the love-child of jesus, mohammad, and santa claus. This is an affront to our rights as citizens and a monumental overstep of federal power. If something like this managed to pass a hundred fifty years ago, we'd probably have a new revolution on our hands. Instead, most people could care less. That is truly terrifying.

fixed.



Yes, we should be allowed to arrest and prosecute illegal aliens. What does this have to do with building a wall to keep them out... which it won't.

Why not introduce stricter penalties for employing illegals and/or better processes for investigating companies suspected of employing them? When companies no longer hire them, they will no longer come to america and then we no longer need a law violating wall. Fix the leak at the source instead of just patching it up?

I guess that just makes too much sense. Let's try to build a fucking wall that spans the entire border. Stick some bubble gum in the leak in the dam.

Actually, not being able to find a job will not stop people from coming in. They know coming here doesn't guarantee them a job. When they have a hard time making money, it is hard for them to stay healthy. They go to hospitals and receive care that they need (on a side note: I'm happy that the hospitals take care of people like illegal immigrants). The tax payers are paying for it. Again they have to get food one way or another. I'm sure they will steal food before they starve.

I'm against someone being exempt from the law, very much against. On the building of a wall, I'm not too sure and until I see data on cost analysis, potential benefits, and potential problems, I won't know where I stand on the issue.

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

You're SURE if they can't find food they'll steal it???? mkay.

Anyway. If they cannot find jobs they will not come here. They all find work. I've never met an illegal immigrant who doesn't have a job. Interestingly enough, I've met numerous citizens who don't have jobs, who's the real problem?

Assuming the problem is that their are too many employers of illegal immigrants is just as stupid as assuming the wall will stop illegal immigration. It is a very complicated issue that will never be truly resolved, but that doesn't mean we should simply ignore one part of the issue for the sake of another.

The wall is a necessity. I can't really think of any reason why it is a bad idea, actually. Like it or not, history shows that physical barriers do prevent the movement of people. Obviously we have come a long technologically since then, but the wall will stop the vast majority of illegal immigrants that simply walk across our borders. I'm quite glad it is being built; I just hope it doesn't add such a feeling of security that we start ignoring the other important ways to tackle the issue like penalizing companies that hire them and redeveloping our immigration policies to help more immigrants enter the country legally.

Oh, and yes. History [and biology] has also proven to us that people will always steal before they starve. Although I hardly think that is an issue. Our homeless tend to die of exposure long before they die of starvation; apparently we throw away a lot of perfectly fine food.

While I do not disagree with the wall, for the sake of playing Devil's Advocate I will make an attempt to guess at a couple of negatives. ...And all I can come up with are exorbitant cost and maybe an increased feeling of national paranoia (which one can argue is the case for our high national homicide rate in comparison to a lot of other countries, but I am not an anthropologist). Meh.

I haven't run the numbers, but I would almost assume that creating a wall around the entire nation would be cheaper than going to war in Iraq...

Yes. But at this point it's a little late to choose a wall over a war.

That doesn't mean it's worth doing... /dry.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="<_<" border="0" alt="dry.gif" />

I already justified my reasons for supporting the wall, I was just replying to the "exorbitant cost" claim.

Ah. Then I'll rephrase.




That isn't saying much...

What history are you referring to in which a physical barrier would keep a population from doing what they are already doing? The Palestine wall is REALLY tall and unbroken. The Berlin wall was guarded pretty viciously and didn't need to be that long. If anything this wall reminds me of the Maginot Line which totally kept the Nazi's out of France.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say...

All three of those barricades worked well in curbing the flow of a populous...

The Maginot Line? The Nazis walked around it.

As long as people are employing them they will come. If there's a wall, they will find other ways to get here. There is no way that wall will stop them unless we build a fucking dome over central america with one exit and we guard it with a fucking tesla coil.

The main reason i believe most people support the wall is because they're racist assholes. People don't care that immigrants are coming over here and using our hospitals. The money they generate for our economy through cheap labor pays for that shit. People are afraid of the fact that mexicans look different, they have darker skin, they speak a different language. Americans want the wall because they want to keep out mexican culture.

That's why I don't support the building of the wall and that's why I think it's complete bullshit.

Of course prosecuting companies that employ illegal immigrants is a necessity. I don't think anyone is arguing that you shouldn't. However, we live in a country where the penalty must meet the crime, so we can't possibly penalize companies enough to make all of them give up on hiring illegals even when they think they can get away with it. It's a sad truth, but people will do what they want if they think they can get away with it.

That doesn't even remotely prove to be an argument against the construction of the wall, though. The two seek to tackle the same problem, but they're attacking two very different causes of the problem - economics and physicality.

It is fairly easy for illegal immigrants to come into the United States. If it weren't, there wouldn't be so many millions of them. They want to come here so they seek a better life, but they get here because it is simply easy to do. They just have to walk. When you put a wall in front of them, you don't get rid of their reason to come to the United States (like you point out), but you certainly make it much harder to accomplish. Of course some will still get by the wall, that is why we need to pursue other methods for addressing the reason they want to come here, but once again...that doesn't say anything about the effectiveness of the wall.

So my question to you, CJ, is what evidence do you have to support the idea that the wall would not help stem the influx of illegal immigrants? Human beings can't simply fly by the power of their desires. We need to construct elaborate devices to accomplish that, and elaborate devices tend to be really easy to spot. They could boat around the wall, I'm sure...but boats are really easy to spot on the open water (especially when they're coming in large numbers).

I'd resent the "racist" comment if I didn't think it was so unbelievably naive. A lot of Americans are racist, sure. But a lot of Americans are also unemployed, concerned about national security, concerned about ever-increasing health care costs, etc. To undervalue such concerns is really quite shortsighted, in my opinion. I guarantee race plays a role in the whole debate, but illegal immigration would be a non-issue for the majority of the United States if it didn't contribute to problems facing our entire nation.

Well, here's the thing about employment:

They're taking the jobs no one wants, usually. For example, lets take a look at where I live. There are mushroom houses. A lot of them. Mushrooms grow in chicken shit. A lot of it.

Now, even if you're a redneck, blue collar, got-my-high-school-degree-by-the-skin-of-my-teeth kinda guy, you're not going to want to take a job crawling around in chicken shit for 8+ hours a day to pluck out mushrooms, yeah?

Now a Mexican, with no hope AT ALL for a job in Mexico comes here. Someone says to them "I will give you 4 dollars an hour, and all you have to do is wiggle through chicken poop for me all day" They are on that like...well, stink on (chicken) shit.

Just saying.

My point was, the Berlin wall worked because if you crossed it they FUCKING SHOT YOU. The palestine wall works because there is literally no way around the damned thing. And the Maginot line... didn't work.

Also they already tunnel under the walls that we already have.

The only real issue I care about in regards to illegal immigrants coming into the country is we don't know WHO exactly is coming. Its already been said that the economy needs them, and its true. Its been true for centuries, as we've always had new founded, uneducated populations coming into the country to do the jobs others didn't want, whether it be Irish, Poles, Chinese, Africans, or Latinos. Its been happening for centuries, and it will continue happening for the foreseeable future. I only ask we we start keeping some record of who enters the country. Being able to control who enters the country would be huge in preventing another attack.

i support illegal aliens breaking into your home in pursuit of their basic human right to better their lives. be sure to have some cots handy.


meat---->did chertoff vote yes or no? he didn't vote? so who is it who's scoffing at our laws and consTITution?

he scoffs because he can ignore them and has chosen to in several regards already. And he's completely unpunishable by a lower court, and his cases can't be appealed. That's why he scoffs. And what's with the emphasis on Tit in the Constitution?

Also I don't know that illegal immigrants are the ones we should worry about in terms of a potential future attack. The previous attack already showed that it isn't that hard to get some people into the country legally and then let them execute an attack.

Additionally, if anybody breaks into your home, illegal alien or otherwise they should all be subject to our laws.

There are 2 issues here to focus on IMO.

1) Will building a wall work?
2) Should anybody be above the law?

I believe the answer to the first is definitely debatable, but I don't think anybody should be in the position of power as chertoff, if for no other reason than it leaves Americans powerless in the face of his actions, moral or otherwise. And I believe that it is an American right to be able to challenge authority and be heard. Our America is transforming to become a place where traditional American ideals are being suppressed and if this continues for a few more years they may soon be forgotten. There is an entire generation now who don't remember life before the Patriot Act. Do you think these people are going to be louder or quieter than us?

/rant

The border is not "fairly easy" to traverse at most points. People save up money their whole lives to pay a fucking human smuggler to lead them through the desert. Right now it looks like about one thousand central american immigrants die trying to cross the border each year (about 500 on each side of the border). I'd say that sounds far from fairly easy.

The idea that this wall is necessary for national security just highlights my argument. When will the wall be duplicated on the canadian border? That one is much easier to cross and would be the ideal point of entry for terrorists. That border should receive a wall before the border with mexico does. But like I said, we're not trying to keep out immigrants, we're trying to keep out mexicans. I'm not saying every person that speaks of the wall is neglecting the canadian border but you don't see people outraged or worried about it. People act like fucking zombies are attacking from the south. It's like 28 weeks later or some shit.

As far as illegal immigration causing or adding to our problems with health care or unemployment, i really don't see a strong correlation there. If we could remove all the illegal immigrants that are using our healthcare system or holding a job while an american sits unemployed, it wouldn't solve anything. Americans wouldn't rush to take their jobs and our healthcare would still be broken. The large population of immigrants may exacerbate those problems but if we're trying to solve them by fixing illegal immigration then we're going about things the wrong way.

There is only 1 government to our north. Canada is friendly with us and fights the same war on terror with us. They screen anyone who comes into their country and we can feel fairly safe due to that. To our south, any person from south america can make his way up to mexico to try to get into the US. There are tons of instances of hamas and other terror groups having cells in south america. Is mexico contributing anything to the war on terror? Are they threatened by extremists? No and no, so we should not feel safe with whatever checks they are doing for terrorists. So yes, building a wall with mexico seems more important than building one with canada.

It is precisely that presumptuous attitude that will guarantee that the next time we are attack it willcome from Canada.

if the US/Mexico border does become secure then yes you are correct

So letting the government stomp all over our nuts is justified in the construction of a wall because it will not only prevent Mexicans from getting in and doing bad stuff, but will also keep terrorists out of America if they come from Mexico, which you suggest they won't after they build a wall. I just don't see it.

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