The future of energy in the US.
  • PheylanPheylan September 2008
    To me, this is one of the biggest issues of the upcoming election, because it can start or stall things for at least another 4 years. It's also an issue that I can see politicians actually making progress on and not just putting things off. What does everyone think that the best solution is for the future of energy in the US? Is it alternative research? Offshore drilling? ANWR? Invasion of Iran and stealing all their shit?
  • Black+BalloonBlack Balloon September 2008
    Hydrogen fuel cells and small-scale fusion reactions.

    I'm actually half serious. We need something in extreme abundance, and the three things that step forth quickly into mind are hydrogen, water, and solar energy.

    Solar energy gathering is impractical because of the expense of the panels; good for a supplement, but not really useful or strong enough as an independent source as it is. But I support research efforts in it.

    Water becomes power when you heat it and get steam, which you then compress. Useful, but only in certain applications. It can only power so much.

    Hydrogen is what I find most interesting because of the potential it has in fusion reactions. I want research done there to find a way to make small-scale reactions possible that would produce enough energy to be practical, without blowing everything the fuck up. Essentially atomic power.

    I guess one other that occurred to me just now is the use of wind power; windmill turbines, and wind farms and all that. Again, helpful; but it isn't an independent source and it's used primarily for mass electrical power (what little it provides).

    As for oil; we need more to hold us over for a bit, certainly, but as everyone else has said numerous times, we can't continue consuming it at the rate that we do. I'm in favor of all possibilities for drilling domestically and at offshore sites despite the aesthetic unpleasantness. It is not worth going to war with Iran over, or anyone else for that matter.

    On a final note, it'd be really awesome if someone could look up statistics on current energy production methods, and how much they actually produce.
  • PheylanPheylan September 2008
    This is the article that prompted me to start this topic:

    QUOTE
    September 2, 2008

    From: Roy Hartness / Hartcrafters

    Subject: Energy – First in a Series of Articles

    At the request of several friends and relatives, who know my background and interests I have decided to write a series of articles about energy – including conventional, unconventional and alternative sources. Another reason for doing so is that much of the information in the news media is misleading and false, especially that coming from selective congressional members. The public is being force-fed a bunch of half-truths and outright lies that have generated a false hope that alternative energy sources can totally replace the use of fossil fuel. Nothing could be further from the truth. For instance, only a little more than half the 20 million barrels of oil per day, consumed in the U.S. is used to produce transportation fuel. The other half is used to produce various products such as plastics, a broad range of chemicals, synthetic fibers for clothing, asphalt for paving roads, roofing cement, etc. The list could go on for pages and many of the products are by-products from the production of fuels.

    Before getting too far into the subject let me clarify my position on alternative and renewable energy sources. I have been a lifelong supporter of the PRACTICAL use of wind, solar, geothermal, methane, ethanol, nuclear and hopefully some day – hydrogen as energy sources. And having a keen interest in science, a basic education in mechanical engineering and two patents related to the conservation of energy in industrial applications; you can rest assured I plan to take advantage of any new practical development for my own use. More than 28 years ago I designed and installed the first geothermal heating and air conditioning system in my home county for my own home which is still in operation today and is still more energy efficient than any system on the market today with an approximate SEER rating of 24. Furthermore, I plan to build a retirement home and test two of my new ideas under development today and use some solar heating and wind power production in combination.

    Some of you may have no interest in this subject and, if so, you can stop reading now; but if you continue with this and future articles, I promise you will know more about energy and what it really means than 90% of our congressional members – both Democratic and Republican – so let’s dismiss any partisan political motives. I am sure our congressional members are all intelligent and most are well meaning, but the fact is they are mostly educated in law, liberal arts, political science, etc. and few of them have a background, knowledge, or experience in the truly scientific fields. And there in lies the problem of their lack of understanding regarding energy and its practical uses. Furthermore, an admission of ignorance in various subjects outside their training and experience by an egotistical lawyer/politician is all but unheard of. To him, due to his training, that would be equivalent to an admission of guilt, not an indication of wisdom.

    Moving back to the misunderstood subject of energy – for a full understanding of the subject, one must be able to quantify the energy content of various substances and the various units of its measurement. I will attempt to give some explanations without being overly technical and in a way to make this subject as interesting as possible. Those of you who count calories may be surprised.

    Calorie vs. Btu The calorie is a unit of heat measurement in the metric system of measurements and is most often used in association with food, to equate the heat-producing or energy-producing value of various foods when metabolized or oxidized by the human body. This unit, also know as kilogram-calorie, is the amount of heat required to raise (1) kilogram of water 1°C(centigrade). In the British system of measurement the unit of heat measurement is the Btu or British thermal unit which is the amount of heat required to raise (1) pound of water 1°F(Fahrenheit). One calorie equals 3.968 Btu.

    The human body is miraculously efficient at converting plants and meats into heat and energy. Heat is generated to keep the body warm at ± 98.6° F, and work energy is generated for muscle movement. As an example, a diet consisting of 2000 calories per day equals 7,972 Btu. The average human at rest for 16 hours and asleep for 8 hours, will use up approximately 1,663 calories or 6,600 Btu. Without any other exercise or work the other 337 extra calories of heat would be stored as body fat for future use. The 337 extra calories can also be expressed as work energy, the unit of which is foot-pounds (the amount of energy required to lift one pound one foot high). One calorie is equivalent to 3088 foot-pounds of work, or stated another way, the amount of energy required to lift a 10 pound weight one foot high and slowly return it 154 times. In order to work off the 337 extra calories the 10 pound weight could be lifted one foot high and returned a total of 52,000 times. Walking at the rate of three miles per hour for about 80 minutes would accomplish the same thing. One has to ask himself – is a candy bar worth a four mile walk? Yeah, maybe?

    Just for perspective, one kilowatt (KW) of electricity is equivalent to 3,413 Btu. The 2,000 calorie equivalent in electricity amounts to 2.34 KW, and equals the amount of heat generated by a 100 watt light bulb over a 23.4 hour period, which costs about 25 cents. We certainly can’t feed ourselves for 25 cents per day can we? So electricity is still relatively inexpensive.

    Please remember that I understand that most of you are not engineers and you wouldn’t normally be expected to understand the above explanations, so if you need some assistance and further explanation just call.

    Next, let me present a short list of common and uncommon energy sources with respective energy contents and approximate comparative costs to the average consumer. But remember that large industrial users and power plants pay as little as one-third of the listed costs.


    image

    Other Interesting Facts:

    1. One pound of enriched uranium, used in a nuclear power plant, contains about the same amount of energy as 3.6 million pounds of coal, 47 million cubic feet of natural gas or 10,500 barrels of oil.
    2. During the mid 1950’s my grandfather heated his home for a full winter with one ton of coal at a cost of $10.00. But remember, at that time the cost of a Coke was 5 cents.

    You will notice that there are no estimates for the cost per THERM for hydrogen and wind powered electricity. I could not find anyone willing to quote a price for hydrogen. As for electricity produced by a wind generator – the cost could be as much as $10.00 per THERM for a residential system sized for the average home, and would require a large bank of storage batteries that require replacement every 4 to 5 years. Obviously, large solar or wind systems constructed for industrial use could be less but cost is highly dependent upon the length and complexity of the distribution system required for connection to an existing grid system and land costs. Why do you think T. Boone Pickens is constantly promoting his plan on TV? I suspect the reason is because he will never realize a return on his investment without massive subsidies (at consumer expense) to pay for the electrical distribution system and land. You never hear about this in his commercials.


    Now consider these alleged facts about wind powered electricity generation, the first four of which being published in the 8-21-08 edition of Investors Business Daily.

    1. Wind provides only 1% of our electricity compared to 49% for coal, 22% for natural gas, 19% for nuclear and 7% for hydro-electric. Geothermal provides a fraction of 1%.
    2. If we could replace all of the 22% of the electricity generated today by natural gas with wind generated electricity it would require (300,000) – 1.5 megawatt wind turbines occupying an area about the size of South Carolina.
    3. Wind turbines operate at about 20% efficiency compared to 85% for coal, gas and nuclear plants. A single 1000 megawatt nuclear power plant can produce more power at a much higher degree of dependability than (2800) 1.5 megawatt wind turbines sitting on 175,000 acres.
    4. Building wind farms requires 5 to 10 times more steel and concrete than nuclear power plants generating the same amount of power.
    5. Researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology estimate that 100 gigawatts (100,000 megawatts or 100,000,000 kilowatts) of generating capacity will be required in the next 15 to 25 years just to replace existing older plants – about 50% nuclear and 50% coal fired due to environmental concerns. This required replacement capacity alone amounts to (66,667) 1.5 megawatt wind turbines, assuming the 20% efficiency factor is correct.
    6. The International Energy Association, in its 2007 report, has estimated that the electrical demand in the U.S. will increase by over 50% by 2030. this increase in estimated electrical demand, if correct, in 23 years would require another (681,818) 1.5 megawatt wind turbines.
    7. Former Vice President Al Gore estimates that all of our electrical needs could be provided by alternative energy sources in 10 years. If we use only wind generated power, prorate the above increase in demand over 10 years and add in the prorated requirements due to decommissioning older plants; the total demand would require about (1,693,000) 1.5 megawatt wind turbines. The space requirement would be roughly 6 times the size of South Carolina.

    Have you priced a solar photovoltaic power production system for an average home lately? A system sized for about half the power requirement for the average home with battery storage will range between $30,000 and $50,000 installed – after state and federal tax credits. Not only that,, the batteries require replacement every 4 to 5 years and the solar cells themselves require replacement every 20 to 25 years. A grid-tied system would cost somewhat less because storage batteries would not be required.

    As we all know, the wind doesn’t blow continuously, not even in “wind alley”, and the sun doesn’t shine 24 hours per day; and the use of these two alternative energy sources requires about an 80% back-up from conventional sources.

    Isn’t it amazing now-a-days how solar and wind power generation are being heavily promoted by our know-it-all politicians, tree huggers and profiteering investors. Many believe our total power production can be by renewable sources within 10 years. Friends, it ain’t gonna happen – and if it did – our power bills would be three times what they are today, either through direct costs or through higher taxes to pay for government subsidies. I would bet on the latter so that government officials can hide the real cost increases from the general voting public.

    I am certainly in favor of energy independence and the use of alternative energy sources at a reasonable price. And there is a place for solar and wind generated electricity. Until we have more technological developments and cost improvements we need to rethink our energy policies. How about more nuclear power plants, less stonewalling, and more domestic oil and gas production?

    More is forthcoming in the very near future. In the meantime be skeptical of what you hear and read in the news media. And please save this article for future reference.



    This biggest note that you don't hear about a lot is that only 50% of all oil products go into fuel. The rest goes into plastics, roads, etc.
  • JonobonoJonobono September 2008
    My guess is that if Obama/Biden are elected, they will practice the diplomacy needed to mend ties with adjacent, oil rich nations, thus easing the crisis we face today. But I only see this as a sort term solution considering we're dealing with a non renewable energy source. Either way, alternate energy sources MUST be researched at this time.
  • EvestayEvestay September 2008
    lol jono, would you rather cowtow to shitty regimes in the mid-east so that we keep getting oil or start drilling our own to decrease our dependance on their oil?

    and thanks for the great article you posted phey.
  • BillBill September 2008
    QUOTE (Evestay @ Sep 3 2008, 11:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    lol jono, would you rather cowtow to shitty regimes in the mid-east so that we keep getting oil or start drilling our own to decrease our dependance on their oil?

    and thanks for the great article you posted phey.



    There really is no point to attempting to have a rational discussion with you. All you'll do is cut and paste links to articles you think support your point. In short, you're a dick. Diplomacy is clearly one of many things we could use to work on in the next four years.
  • EvestayEvestay September 2008
    Yeah that is kinda what I do. However, I feel the same way as you in that it seems impossible to persuade the overwhelming majority here. I just stick around and try because this is the only forum I visit, I am interested in politics, and you guys are nice enough about my differences of opinion.
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    I actually started enjoying our debates. More so now than when you just posted links and quotes, though.

    With that in mind, we invaded Afghanistan, oil prices went up. We invaded Iraq, oil prices went up. (They're selling oil to china and turkey, but not us now) We rattled our sabers at Iran, oil prices went up. Then Bush agreed to start talking about timetables for withdrawl and prices went down.

    It's not cowtowing, it's common sense.

    Meanwhile, our consumption of oil is 25% of the supply. Our supply of oil, total, explored and unexplored isn't over 5%. We CAN'T be energy independent with oil, but some drilling here would bolster the profits of domestic oil companies and reduce THEIR dependence on foreign oil. Their increased profit margins could result in lower prices at the pump for a few years, but not for a decade, and by then we should be well on our way to alternatives, and if we aren't our country will be in sore shape.

    The only immediate effect ANWR/offshore domestic drilling would have on prices would be a slight drop as speculators got excited about the prospect, and then the steady rise would continue.
  • JeddHamptonJeddHampton September 2008
    Wind energy is becoming increasingly popular. I know my company is FORCED to spend money (by the state of Delaware) putting up offshore wind turbines. My company is also spending money on its own to buy wind energy from the mid-west.

    Solar panels take too long to gain back their cost. Maybe some of the MIT research will change that.

    As for drilling for oil, the best course of action with our current knowledge is to drill for it.
  • EvestayEvestay September 2008
    QUOTE (ANunes @ Sep 4 2008, 07:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I actually started enjoying our debates. More so now than when you just posted links and quotes, though.

    With that in mind, we invaded Afghanistan, oil prices went up. We invaded Iraq, oil prices went up. (They're selling oil to china and turkey, but not us now) We rattled our sabers at Iran, oil prices went up. Then Bush agreed to start talking about timetables for withdrawl and prices went down.

    It's not cowtowing, it's common sense.

    Meanwhile, our consumption of oil is 25% of the supply. Our supply of oil, total, explored and unexplored isn't over 5%. We CAN'T be energy independent with oil, but some drilling here would bolster the profits of domestic oil companies and reduce THEIR dependence on foreign oil. Their increased profit margins could result in lower prices at the pump for a few years, but not for a decade, and by then we should be well on our way to alternatives, and if we aren't our country will be in sore shape.

    The only immediate effect ANWR/offshore domestic drilling would have on prices would be a slight drop as speculators got excited about the prospect, and then the steady rise would continue.


    Totally agree with everything about what drilling here would accomplish, but I don't think your analysis of why oil prices went up and down is fair. It's all about supply and demand. Lately oil prices have been going down because the demand dropped off due to the prices being high. Clamouring for domestic drilling also curbed some speculation as well. I do think Bush talking about withdrawal could indicate that we will eventually be spending less money and so the dollar will gain strength, which could lead to a price drop in oil as well.

    I guess I can try to look at why oil went up previously. 9/11 hit and it made people weary that oil would continue to flow from the Middle East. This meant supply might go down and so prices would have to go up. Then, our economy started to rebound 2002-2006, we spent like drunken sailors, and China and India kept expanding their economies rapidly, all of which meant that more money would be available to spend and so demand for oil would increase thus increasing prices. Hurricane Katrina hit in 2005 and definitely disrupted the flow of oil so that supply went down and price would have to go up. Yes, our sabre-rattling at Iran made the world unsure that oil would continue to flow out of the region and so demand would plummet and so speculators would pounce on that to increase the price of oil, but I don't think that was the main reason. I do agree that oil went up due to Afghanistan and Iraq but only insofar as we spent a lot of money and weakened the dollar and so oil cost more for us. Iraq will soon be producing more oil than it did under Saddam (probably by the end of the year the aggregate drilling will surpass what Saddam did) and so that is a gain in the long run. It does not matter that other people are buying Iraq's oil. It only matters that it adds to the world's supplies and that the global marketplace will take that into account.
  • GovernorGovernor September 2008
    What you're saying doesn't refute Andrew's point. He was pointing out that the oil industry sets its prices not by what the supply is but by what the supply might be, so anytime there is any chance of a disruption of foreign oil imports (like when a war starts in an oil-exporting country), the price of oil increases.
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    Yeah, this is a matter of emphasis. We buy next month's oil today, at next month's prices. So when we start talking to oil producing countries like we aren't planning on bombing them into the 3rd century, speculators feel a little more comfortable about the supply remaining constant, and poof, prices drop. Taking a hardline approach to these countries just scares these guys into raising the price.

    Supply and demand aren't really the factors in a speculation market. Speculation about the supply and demand are. Right before the summer, people were supposed to use more gas than they did, cause it's travel season, prices went up all spring. When it became apparent that they weren't traveling, demand speculation dropped off and prices fell with it.

    Also, there are a ton of explored oil fields that oil companies aren't drilling because it keeps the price of oil high, making them more money.

    To reduce it to econ 101 doesn't really do it justice.
  • JeddHamptonJeddHampton September 2008
    Colbert did the best explanation of this that I've heard yet (in formidable opponent, about why we should drill for oil). I can look it up when I get home, but I can sum it up.

    The oil market is speculative. We have plenty of oil right now, but in the future, we might not have much at all. So they sell us oil at the price of what oil will possibly cost. If we drill for oil, there may be a lot of it in the future (like there is today). This will lower prices.

    edit: Here is the vid.
    http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertreport...?videoId=179263
  • coffeecoffee September 2008
    QUOTE (Pheylan @ Sep 3 2008, 01:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    To me, this is one of the biggest issues of the upcoming election, because it can start or stall things for at least another 4 years. It's also an issue that I can see politicians actually making progress on and not just putting things off. What does everyone think that the best solution is for the future of energy in the US? Is it alternative research? Offshore drilling? ANWR? Invasion of Iran and stealing all their shit?

    NOt confining this to the US, but worldwide, i like a combination of the first three. Opening up ANWR would be beneficial. Offshore drilling is already happening (Hebron - 400-700 mbbl recoverable out of a total 3 billion). Alternative research devoted to hydrogen/nuclear etc, as well as improving technology for conventional and nonconventional reservoirs. Everything else is supplementary and not really economically feasible on a large scale
  • MedicMedic September 2008
    I'm more worried about global warming then the energy crisis.
  • xemplarxemplar September 2008
    QUOTE (Medic @ Sep 6 2008, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I'm more worried about global warming then the energy crisis.

    The energy crisis is essentially causing global warming...the more coal we burn, for energy, creates more pollution in the air. They go hand in hand together.
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    QUOTE (Medic @ Sep 6 2008, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I'm more worried about global warming then the energy crisis


    I also think that a real honest to god energy crisis would be devastating in the REALLY short term. We still aren't even sure if we can halt global warming or if it's just our planets natural cycles, blah blah. But we ARE running out of oil. Both are permanent problems if we don't find a solution soon though. But the path to energy independence is greener than it has been in the past, so fix one, and the other is fixed too., like xemp said.
  • MedicMedic September 2008
    Pretty sure the CO2 emission(global warming) is not a naturally occurring cycle, considering in the span of 100 or so years, since the industrial revolution, the c02 emission and global temperature has spiked up a great deal.

    Notice the c02 ppm concentration is currently ~390 ppm.
    http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/

    The last 1000 years of c02 concentration as compared to the temperature.
    http://whyfiles.org/211warm_arctic/images/1000yr_change.jpg

    The last 500,000 years of c02 concentration as compared to the temperature.
    http://www.climateark.org/overview/graphics/large/2.jpg
    Notice the previous c02 concentration peak(during the past 500,000) was barely above 300 ppm.

    So, c02 concentration has an effect on global temperature, global warming does exist and its not a cycle!

    Current projections of co2 concentration in 200 years...
    http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalch...le/image009.gif



    ***An alternative fuel source should be developed(replaced discovered w/ developed) into, but efforts to curtail the consumption of gasoline should be looked into...i.g. GTFO hybrid SUV's(imo an idiotic concept).
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    To start, I'm going to point out that it's i.e. or e.g. never i.g. and furthermore the usage is nuanced anyway, so you should probably avoid using it all together and stick with For Example.

    There's very good science to back up Global Warming. I don't disagree with it, and in fact curb my footprint as much as I'm able. I'm just saying that while there's good science to back up GW, there's a solid fact base that backs up the idea that if we run out of oil before we switch to a different energy supply we're fucked. Royally. Imagine no plastic. Go ahead, take 10 seconds to look around you and get rid of all the plastic shit you have.

    /only about 1/2 of the oil we suck up from the earth is used as fuel. We take the rest and turn it into action figures, phones, computer parts, and magic markers.

    Focusing on the more immediate issue of the looming energy crisis will address your (legitimate) concerns about Global Warming. Addressing Global Warming directly will result in a bunch of whining about a lack of evidence and 10 years of gridlock in congress while they bicker about the human effect on the environment instead of dealing with the problem.

    //FYI in this case, the correct usage was i.e.
    edit:///in hindsight, that still doesn't work because you are supposed to be giving a single example of your previous thought, not continuing to stump that point.
    (i.e. Hybrid SUV's) is REALLY the right usage.
  • coffeecoffee September 2008
    just to further add to the i.e./e.g. douchery

    i.e. is supposed to be used when you're clarifying a prior point, as in "Tom Brady's season is in jeopardy, ie - his leg snapped"

    e.g. is used when you're giving an example to support your point, as in "The Patriots' owners are kind of douchebags, e.g. trademarking 19-0 before winning the SB"

    Medic in your case you should've reworded your last sentence and appended "(i.e. Hybrid SUV's)" or kept the sentence and use "e.g. GTFO hybrid suv's"
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    All this dissolves into:

    i.e. and e.g. have but two things in common, and those are that they are both confused frequently, and they are both fucking awkward even when used correctly.

    Paid for by Andrew's Campaign against Archaic Latin Acronyms that Translate Awfully into our Language and Are Crappy. (ACALATALAC)
  • JeddHamptonJeddHampton September 2008
    QUOTE (ANunes @ Sep 10 2008, 03:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    All this dissolves into:

    i.e. and e.g. have but two things in common, and those are that they are both confused frequently, and they are both fucking awkward even when used correctly.

    Paid for by Andrew's Campaign against Archaic Latin Acronyms that Translate Awfully into our Language and Are Crappy. (ACALATALAC)


    QED!
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    Not confusing enough. Nobody knows what it stands for, but any idiot knows what it means.
    How about the difference between:
    s.l.
    and
    s.v.

    They mean precisely the opposite of one another, and it makes absolutely no sense to the reader if you fuck it up.
  • MedicMedic September 2008
    Crap me...lol it was between class when I wrote it. I meant e.g. lol.

    I just find hybrid SUV's a stupid idea. Hybrid's are supposedly developed to conserved gas, but to make the epitome of a gas guzzler into one is stupid. Just my opinion!
  • ScabdatesScabdates September 2008
    i.e. and e.g. are perfectly understandable and not awkward at all unless you're a three year old with brain damage
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    QUOTE (Medic @ Sep 10 2008, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Crap me...lol it was between class when I wrote it. I meant e.g. lol.

    I just find hybrid SUV's a stupid idea. Hybrid's are supposedly developed to conserved gas, but to make the epitome of a gas guzzler into one is stupid. Just my opinion!


    Your point was not lost, and I'm in complete agreement.

    @scabsywabsy -
    You clearly haven't had to peer review college papers (ie Like I did at temple). They, could not seem to avoid peppering their paper with the things, eg history paper's, english paper's, etc. Between that; and they're inability to practice basic, sentence syntax and grammer as well as: spelling, and the complete lack of understanding of proper usage of punctuation; I learned to try and keep thing's simple.

    /man that was hard to do.
  • JeddHamptonJeddHampton September 2008
    It was hard to read as well.
  • MedicMedic September 2008
    Meh, grammar and writing were never really my strong points... more of a science and math kinda dude.

    EDIT: But I heard they are rereleasing the hybrid Honda Insight, at 18 thousand and an estimated 50 mpg it'll be affordable and gas friendly.
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    I get about 31 mpg after all the shit I had to get fixed on my hunk of junk. Up from like 24.
  • JeddHamptonJeddHampton September 2008
    Are you going to save money in the end?
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    those repairs were mandatory. A locked brake caliper robbed me of some mileage, and also made my brake pad look like a 60 year old hard drive platter. Other than that I had to get a new fuel injector so I could go over 50 mph, which added even more mileage, and I paid for a bunch of other general maintenance that hadn't been done in ... ever maybe.

    So whether it saves money in the long run is a moot point, but it's certainly saving me some money in general.
  • MedicMedic September 2008
    Must have been a hefty labor fee...I'm lucky, my friend is a mechanic and he pretty much does all that stuff for me without labor cost, 24 pack afterwards is all he needs.
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