The end all be all of this "bailout"
  • mungomungo September 2008
    First things first, I'm for this "bailout" even though the term coined by the media is just not true. No firm will be made whole, and the losses they're going to face will be disastrous. Government intervention is an anathema -- not for the firms, but for the global economy.

    We need these huge financial corporations to deleverage. Everyone agrees with that. However, no one wants to lever up; and let's be honest, would you? Would you purchase toxic assets that pay little to no interest, that have little to no intrinsic value, and maintain the burden of holding them to maturity (up to 29 years)? No, you wouldn't. You don't have the cash on hand to do so. The government however, does.

    As horrendous as this may sound, pragmatism should trump philosophy and we need to look at the current economic situation. TED spreads are outrageously high (past 300), LIBOR is above 6%, gold is moving towards $900, and the Dow fluctuating 2000 points per week (net fluctuations); the global economy appears to be walking on the ledge of an abyss. Congress will not let this happen - they are not ignorant and they understand that philosophical grandstanding will come at a later date. There will be a time where we pay attention to the exorbitant bonuses of executives, but that time is not now. WaMu's demise couldn't have happened at a worse time, even if it was bound to happen. It will play the role as fog over a war-torn battlefield and distract us from making the correct decisions.

    It's also important that the $700 billion bill that's been proposed is a MAXIMUM amount, and it is actually possible for the government to purchase these toxic assets at fractions of pennies on the dollar, turn the assets around, hold them to maturity, and make a few hundred billion. The potential for making money off of these situations is possible, not likely, but if managed wisely definitely a possibility. They could, theoretically, start reselling them when the economy turns around in a few years, making 10%. Who would buy them? I'm not sure, but once the housing market turns around, people will want to get their feet wet a little bit by only spending pennies on the dollar.

    With regard to economic data, we are fighting off a recession. The leading indicator is unemployment, which has been on the rise. Last week jobless claims shot to 493k (up from 461k). This isn't taking into consideration the current impact of natural disasters (IKE) and how they will affect our unemployment levels. Virtually every single time unemployment has risen above 400,000 a recession either followed quickly or was already extant. This leads to weakness in retail sales as disposable income takes a huge hit. The depression upon the housing industry and the frailty of the big 3 auto makers is probably a good indication that we're going to pass 500,000 unemployed before the new years, and once wall street lays off another 25% and the south recovers from Ike, expect those numbers to increase above 550k. That's greater than 8%. But it is important to realize that we've faced depressions, recessions, and a frightening lack of consumer confidence before -- and our current economic infrastructure has been manipulated over the past 50 years to be resilient, and will bounce back. Don't expect it anytime soon, and don't quit your job as the job market is about to approach the hardest times in the last quarter century.

    As you can tell, this 'bailout' isn't for wall street. It's for everybody. It's for the credit markets that have been broken. No one is willing to part with cash which means that the long term economic value of certain credit structures are well below any reasonable estimate. If you claim "let the banks fail" please understand what you're saying. You're worried about taxpayers monies, but not about the average Joe who has a pension fund, IRA, or a savings account. Insurance only covers a certain amount of that. Imagine having a checking/savings account with WaMu and having it be above $100,000. If JPMorgan Chase didn't purchase WaMu, you'd lose anything you had above $100,000. So all that money you saved over the past 30 years? Gone. You're $500,000 retirement fund? Gone. Planning on buying a house? Sorry. Good luck taking a third mortgage at the current rates.

    I have no idea what is going to happen with this rescue. All I know is I'll be scared out of my mind if a deal isn't reached, and soon. It's possible that Paulson is going to plug the idea of creating an entity, inject $100 billion in it, have the government manage, run, and maintain it, and have it contain all the toxic assets. In exchange for the toxic assets, the companies who currently own them (before transfer of ownership) will be required to use a large chunk of the $100 billion to invest BACK into the governments entity, in the shape of stock. This would mean whatever happens to the newly formed entity wouldn't affect taxpayers, but the original companies the toxic assets came from (equity shareholders). This would accomplish two things: have minimal affect on taxpayers, and unload the burden of the assets these have on the banks.

    Like I said before, I have no idea what's going to happen by today's end, but I'm highly engaged in following the story. I hope after reading this you understand a little bit more, will give the government a little bit more slack in correcting this situation, and realize the ripple effect that the global economy would incur. And please don't say "the stock market has been fine for the past two weeks, I think that means the economy is fine without a bailout." That's just horribly ignorant: people are waiting for a response before taking massive positions. That, and options are at an all time high for most major indices and straddles are very expensive (people expect a major market shift within the next 3 months). Saying that the stock market has been doing decently is the same as saying that the GDP that's going to be announced today is a major indicator of the economy -- it isn't. The GDP figures are going to be 6 months old, and frankly when dealing with what we have on our hands right now, are completely irrelevant.
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    There's a lot to respond to up there.

    I'll start by tackling the claim that this mess affects the average joe. The average joe DOESN'T have a 401k. He doesn't have a pension, and he doesn't have over 100k in savings. The average joe lives paycheck to paycheck busting his ass hoping he doesn't get laid off or fired before getting his pension locked in. If you've got over 100k in the bank you should move everything over 100k to other accounts at other banks. And you shouldn't have gone over 100k to begin with in one account. (Even though the FDIC doesn't have enough money to insure all our money anyway...)

    What this 'bailout' (I'll accept that the name is terrible) is doing is propping up our imaginary economy. Gold is shifting towards its real value in relation to our money. The DOW wouldn't be so fucking crazy right now if people weren't STILL allowed to short sell. Dumping money into the problem is supposed to make these people calm down? I'd be shitting bricks about the soon to be through the roof inflation rates.

    I also find it funny that we wouldn't trust our government to run anything until we're worried about OUR money. And I find the assertion that our government has this money laughable.

    To polish this off, I know you are very well versed in the market. But:
    QUOTE
    Saying that the stock market has been doing decently is the same as saying that the GDP that's going to be announced today is a major indicator of the economy -- it isn't. The GDP figures are going to be 6 months old, and frankly when dealing with what we have on our hands right now, are completely irrelevant.


    No. It's not anything like that at all. Not even remotely and you know it. That's a terrible comparison and I find it kind of insulting that you think a person such as myself, a vocal critic of this proposal, would buy it.

    People ARE taking massive positions

    You talk alot about the repercussions of doing nothing. You don't mention the repercussions of giving one man free reign over $2,296.60 for every man woman and child in this country without oversight or instructions.

    I'm not suggesting that we let the banks fail, I'd agree that there probably would be ripple effects that would reach across the pond and fuck shit up all over the world. I'm just saying that using that *theoretical concept of a very complicated and never seen before situation* as a justification for the single sharpest turn towards socialism this country has ever taken might be the wrong approach. Cooler heads prevail. Let's think about this instead of throwing money that we don't have at the problem.

    For Christ's sake man! China isn't going to give us any more money. Indefinitely. We've spent the last 8 years writing checks our economy couldn't cash, and propping up industries that made money off of money that didn't exist.

    I'll take severe pain for the next 10 years over a slow grinding death by national debt over then next 50. It's simply irresponsible to pass this bill as currently outlined.

    /take the long view dewd.
  • mungomungo September 2008
    QUOTE (ANunes @ Sep 26 2008, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    No. It's not anything like that at all. Not even remotely and you know it. That's a terrible comparison and I find it kind of insulting that you think a person such as myself, a vocal critic of this proposal, would buy it.

    I have to do something real quick, but let me respond to this: It was in no way intended as an insult, and you know that. I will admit that I phrased the aforementioned horribly. In no way was I attempting to compare the two, I was trying to show people that they are not economic indicators at this time. With the current state of confusion we're in, you shouldn't be paying attention to them. If you're looking for a leading indicator, pay attention to CPI, unemployment, and housing starts.

    My apologies for not being more clear with what I was saying.
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    QUOTE (mungo @ Sep 26 2008, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I have to do something real quick, but let me respond to this: It was in no way intended as an insult, and you know that. I will admit that I phrased the aforementioned horribly. In no way was I attempting to compare the two, I was trying to show people that they are not economic indicators at this time. With the current state of confusion we're in, you shouldn't be paying attention to them. If you're looking for a leading indicator, pay attention to CPI, unemployment, and housing starts.

    My apologies for not being more clear with what I was saying.


    Ok. It was just really disingenuous the way you started with a comparison between watching the market, which updates constantly, and watching the GDP reports, which are updated semiannually - then saying, "The GDP figures are going to be 6 months old, and frankly when dealing with what we have on our hands right now, are completely irrelevant."

    It implied that looking at the market was irrelevant to the situation because it's so out of date, which isn't the case. It was just such a stark contrast in accuracy compared to the rest of you [quite informative by the way] post that it stank like an attempt to distract. Perhaps I am overreacting by saying I'm insulted, but watching the market is not only relevant, but crucial in diagnosing and treating the problem. CPI, unemployment and housing starts may be more accurate representations of the state of things, but they only tell you what the problem may be, not where the problem truly exists and originated, nor what you need to do to fix it.

    I think we're using different ideas of what might be relevant to the conversation, perhaps because we're trying to have different conversations about the same subject.
  • GovernorGovernor September 2008
    10 years of hell to re-stabilize our economy; sounds like a steal to me. Can we go double or nothing and depose all federal politicians as well?
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    QUOTE (Governor @ Sep 26 2008, 01:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    10 years of hell to re-stabilize our economy; sounds like a steal to me. Can we go double or nothing and depose all federal politicians as well?


    10 years of living on bread and (tap!) water will help further that cause I'm sure.
    /it's like college... for everybody!
    //I'll bring the beer.
  • JeddHamptonJeddHampton September 2008
    QUOTE (ANunes @ Sep 26 2008, 01:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    10 years of living on bread and (tap!) water will help further that cause I'm sure.
    /it's like college... for everybody!
    //I'll bring the beer.



    And none of that expensive beer. We're talking Natty here.
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    even in a full on recession, I'd support our craft breweries.
  • JeddHamptonJeddHampton September 2008
    I like the fact that the guy whose going to solve the problem refused to believe that it existed when he could have done something about it.
  • mungomungo September 2008
    QUOTE (Jedd @ Sep 27 2008, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I like the fact that the guy whose going to solve the problem refused to believe that it existed when he could have done something about it.


    What do you think he could have actually done?
  • JeddHamptonJeddHampton September 2008
    Sorry, should have stated that differently (running on 3 hours of sleep).

    Let me correct the statement to:
    ... when something should have been done about it.
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    QUOTE (mungo @ Sep 27 2008, 11:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    What do you think he could have actually done?


    Supported stricter market regulations, which he still refuses to support even now. IMO the only long term solution to this problem.
  • GovernorGovernor September 2008
    The best solution was never actually getting into this situation to begin with. Another thing the federal government fucks up when it gets involved.
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    QUOTE (Governor @ Sep 28 2008, 10:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    The best solution was never actually getting into this situation to begin with. Another thing the federal government fucks up when it gets involved.



    I'm sorry dude, but that's just idiotic. It was the federal government getting UNINVOLVED with the market that led to this. Dissolution of the Federal Government isn't the solution to everything. If anything, this is a situation they were MADE for. A big maze of red tape? Good, stand in front of the market and make it less appealing to people who shouldn't be there in the first place.

    It's like your system BIOS. They could make it editable from the GUI, but they keep it only accessible with an F key during boot up and they keep it friggin' hideous. That's to keep stupid people from fucking it up.
  • GovernorGovernor September 2008
    I'm not talking about what we did in the past eight years. This has been a problem brewing since the great depression as the federal government gets more and more involved to "help the people" get homes. When you create government-sponsored companies that can't realistically be competed against and require that banks give mortgages to people that should not get them in an absolutely absurd attempt to make all Americans own a house, you get a recipe for disaster.

    You can't blame the market for doing what it does best. It makes money given its circumstances. And since it is necessary and natural for the market to fail periodically, don't make it so that when it does fail, the whole fucking economy collapses and the federal government has to get even more involved.

    I'm not saying that nothing should be done now, I'm saying that nothing would have had to be done if FDR, Jimmy Carter, and Bill Clinton hadn't fucked around with shit they shouldn't be fucking around with.
  • JeddHamptonJeddHampton September 2008
    The housing bubble started because of the government's intervention. The community reinvestment act made it easier to buy homes. That increased demand and shot the price up. Then the bubble popped because people couldn't afford the houses they were buying.
  • EvestayEvestay September 2008
    Well, I think this is the basic final plan and some of the changes:

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  • NunesNunes September 2008
    I like how it tells you what to think about a couple of those points. But I like can live with most of it. The ACORN thing smells funny for sure though.
  • EvestayEvestay September 2008
    yeeeeah I probably should have mentioned that those were handouts the House Republicans created
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    The Acorn thing is not what they say it is. That's house republicans trying to generate controversy at EVERYTHING democrats do.
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    Leak of a conference call about the bailout.

    Congress is in session on this one folks.
  • mungomungo September 2008
    Can someone educate me please (no sarcasm). I'm under the impression that subprimes started with Clinton and his "everyone needs a house" program. Why are people calling this disaster a republican mishap when it was clearly Clinton who installed the foundation that would take 7 or so years to break/correct?
  • GovernorGovernor September 2008
    While Bill Clinton definitely contributed greatly to the current problems, he didn't start the problems. Bill just expanded upon legislation that already existed: the Community Reinvestment Act was passed in '77 under the Carter administration. The goal of the legislation was to force banks in poor areas to give low-interest mortgages to people who would normally be considered credit risks. But that's not even really where this whole "everyone should own a house" began.

    The start of the housing problem could probably best be attributed to FDR. In an attempt to provide some stability in the market during the great depression, FDR created Fannie Mae. The idea, as you know, was the insure/guarantee the mortgages that banks were offering people across the country.

    So when you couple the bad policies that began by the democrats in the 70s with the bad policies that began by the democrats in 30s, you get the primary backer of mortgages across the country collapsing and bringing down the entire economy with it in 2008. The republicans are just blamed because they're in office at the moment (which, in all honesty, is a reasonable place to start with the finger pointing in my opinion).
  • JeddHamptonJeddHampton September 2008
    Not to mention that G.W. supports the everyone should own a house message and revised the CRA to push that message further. So, even if he didn't start it, he is partly to blame (size of blame may vary).
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    QUOTE (mungo @ Sep 29 2008, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    Can someone educate me please (no sarcasm). I'm under the impression that subprimes started with Clinton and his "everyone needs a house" program. Why are people calling this disaster a republican mishap when it was clearly Clinton who installed the foundation that would take 7 or so years to break/correct?


    You are under that impression presumably because that is the impression being conveyed on capitol hill. The Community Reinvestment Act was brought into law during the Carter Administration, not the Clinton Administration. Bush I had this come across his desk again and he made a pretty simple change to it that made it necessary to evaluate the effectiveness of the program on a periodic basis. When it finally made it to Clinton's era he threw in this stuff:
    QUOTE
    Requiring strictly numerical assessments to get a satisfactory CRA rating
    Using federal home-loan data broken down by neighborhood, income group, and race
    Encouraging community groups to complain when banks were not loaning enough to specified neighborhood, income group, and race
    Allowing community groups that marketed loans to target to groups to collect a fee from the banks.

    What a monster. It's all his fault.
  • mungomungo September 2008
    Honestly, I can see how what everyone has done has been adding weight to the situation.

    "Encouraging community groups to complain when banks were not loaning enough to specified neighborhood, income group, and race" is a problem. You shouldn't get a loan if you don't deserve/can't afford it. That is the root of the problem we are facing.
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    So because customers were given the opportunity to complain when they thought they might be discriminated against the banks were unable to say, "sorry, you should rent?" I just think too much responsibility for this mess was put on poor people and the legislation designed to help them out, when the people who are actually in control of this mess are on Wall Street. If there were some regulations in place to prevent the shady loans that were used to lure in people who shouldn't own a house anyway maybe this wouldn't have happened.

    Did this bill possibly contribute?
    Take a look at who to blame for THAT gem.
    Names include:
    Gramm, Phil [R]
    McCain, John [R]

    It's just not wise to bring up one single bill and say, THIS IS THE REASON WE'RE WHERE WE ARE!!!
  • JeddHamptonJeddHampton September 2008
    The bill itself isn't the only reason, but it opened the door to all the situations that have been mishandled by the people receiving the loans, the banks giving the loans, the companies buying the loans, and the government pushing things too far.
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    My point is, there's like... 60 years of legislative history dumped into our economy. This can't, and shouldn't be traced to one piece of legislation. This is the culmination of a failed economic ideology that if we just stand back and let 'er rip, the economy will flourish.
  • GovernorGovernor September 2008
    QUOTE (ANunes @ Sep 29 2008, 03:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    My point is, there's like... 60 years of legislative history dumped into our economy. This can't, and shouldn't be traced to one piece of legislation. This is the culmination of a failed economic ideology that if we just stand back and let 'er rip, the economy will flourish.


    I would argue that there are 250 years of shitty economic policy that have contributed to this mess, but obviously the blame is getting worn pretty thin at that point. It isn't a mistake to address specific sweeping legislation that contributed to this mess because that is one of the few things we can fix immediately.
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    I'd suggest that viewing this mess through the lens of previously enacted legislation is only conducive to pointing fingers. It's a slight distinction, but I'd rather they look at the contents of all the economic legislation separated from their parent bills, and line by line review them in the context of the current crisis. Then they could go back to the parent bills after the fact and go through the real process of enacting those changes. But that's not how our government works...
  • MeatonMeaton September 2008
    lol good news is i only lost 8.00$ on my stocks today that not bad even with the it the market takeing LOL

  • GovernorGovernor September 2008
    QUOTE (ANunes @ Sep 29 2008, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I'd suggest that viewing this mess through the lens of previously enacted legislation is only conducive to pointing fingers. It's a slight distinction, but I'd rather they look at the contents of all the economic legislation separated from their parent bills, and line by line review them in the context of the current crisis. Then they could go back to the parent bills after the fact and go through the real process of enacting those changes. But that's not how our government works...


    It doesn't work like that because it's completely impractical. You can't shut down the entire federal government for years to do a legitimate review of all of our economic legislation, and even if you could it is unlikely that any real consensus would be drawn.

    If you want to go down that path, you have to actually dissolve all of the bloat of the federal government and revert the power back to the people. That is something I would love to see. Until then, you deal with the obvious failures first.
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    I'd argue that looking over all the bills is just as impractical, and without doing it we'll see this failure reoccur in a decade or two, only it will be worse, and we won't have the help of the rest of the world. And there won't be banks ready to buy up other banks shitty loans. We're gonna fix this for a week or two, and when the market starts to act funny again in a couple years we'll have completely forgotten this even happened...

    edit: and we'll have spent 700 billion dollars to get there.
  • GovernorGovernor September 2008
    QUOTE (ANunes @ Sep 29 2008, 03:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
    I'd argue that looking over all the bills is just as impractical, and without doing it we'll see this failure reoccur in a decade or two, only it will be worse, and we won't have the help of the rest of the world. And there won't be banks ready to buy up other banks shitty loans. We're gonna fix this for a week or two, and when the market starts to act funny again in a couple years we'll have completely forgotten this even happened...

    edit: and we'll have spent 700 billion dollars to get there.


    I'm. not. defending. the. bailout. Christ.
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    but I wanna debate the most practical solution to the problemmmmm.. lulz

    I think they should restrict short selling and hedge funds until a deal is reached. That would limit all the really sudden changes in the market and stabalize a lot of reactionary selling and consequential. buying. Thus giving them time to come up with a solution without having to worry about whether or not having mccain and obama at a meeting would effect the market.
  • JeddHamptonJeddHampton September 2008
    Bankruptcy as a solution? Advice from a Harvard Economics Professor.
  • NunesNunes September 2008
    That's my preference, personally. But I understand that many, many, many people will lose almost everything if that's allowed to happen. But I think that this is our economy's return to sanity, and by stopping that we're doing ourselves a disservice in the long haul.
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